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HomeMy WebLinkAboutTranscript 02-22-2006 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 By: Susan L.Chapman, Secretary to the Planning & Zoning Board THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Verbatim Following Agenda Item#1: John Johanson: Ms. McNeely I filed a Form Eight on agenda items two and seven. Bea McNeely: Okay. So we're coming up to item two so you won't be voting. Will you be discussing? John Johanson: No. Bea McNeely: All right that's in order. Verbatim of a portion of Agenda Item #6 regarding a discussion on residential use in the C-1 zoning district. Donald Dunn: What I said was if you're gonna want to build residential in commercial you have to go through rezoning. Leave it out of the special exception realm. You have to rezone. Lamar Russell: To what? Donald Dunn: Commercial to residential if you want to build in commercial. Lamar Russell: But that would be spot zoning. Donald Dunn: That's what you got now. It just makes it more difficult. Page 1 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2009 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Lamar Russell: Well that's in the eye of the beholder. Spot zoning is big or little. Spot zoning is suppose to be a small parcel but the whole town's a small town so well are you advocating going up the just travelling up AlA looking at where you would zone for residential? Small residential applications? How would you do that? Donald Dunn: Well I'm just saying that any commercial property that some developer wants to build residential has to go through the rezoning process. That's what I'm saying regardless of where it is on AlA whether it's on Astronaut or back on Atlantic. Leaving off North Atlantic because the topic was really limited to AlA. John Johanson: What if you got an empty lot on one of the president's streets? Where the gentleman's bank wouldn't finance it because there's residential on either side? Donald Dunn: Then he should have to go through rezoning. John Johanson: But you're punching him for what the city's done to him. Donald Dunn: They're aren't many of those. John Johanson: Do you need more than one? You're creating a hardship on him. And there are a few of those really. I think Bea's right. Donald Dunn: Are they on A l A or are they back? John Johanson: No they're back in their. Donald Dunn: Well that's not in the discussion. We're talking about AIA. That's another subject. Page 2 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning &Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(l)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. John Johanson: But that's in a C-1 zone. Donald Dunn: We are talking about A l A C-1. C-1 and 2. Bea McNeely: Well actually the discussion item is residential use in C-1 so. Donald Dunn: On A1A. Bea McNeely: It doesn't say that on my agenda. But I know that's what we're considering but. 4 Donald Dunn: I thought that was the whole subject. Bea McNeely: Well we still haven't heard from some of the board members. But I do think too that we might be jumping the gun here. We have information coming from the Commercial Development Board and we have some residents that may have some ideas and we haven't heard from them. Lamar Russell: We're just kicking around ideas. I agree with ya. This is what planning's all about. Planning and zoning means kicking around some serious thorny concepts because zonings not easy. And you're right. We don't have to make any decisions. But this is a good time to be doing this discussion because the times gonna roll up when we get all the information and input we need to be in the position to make some good healthy recommendations. I heard a thought the other night that kind of struck a cord with me was when Cathy Barnes was talking and she said she'd see us remain quant and I said to her well what do you mean by quant what will keep us quaint? She knew what she wanted but she couldn't articulate it. I was really trying to draw it out because I really think that's a good idea but when you have a good idea it always gets down to specifics. How do you apply the specifics to make the idea work? So what keeps us quaint? Page 3 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning& Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2009 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Lamar Russell --continued-- I talked to her about it later and she said well it's kind of like when you drive down Al A and the main arteries and you see some homes and condominiums and townhomes and businesses and everything just mixed in together makes the town we are. And Leo weighed in that conversation and he said ya you know we do have a lot of residence fronting on Al A and it's not all bad. So I went away and thought about that and I think they've got a point and Bea's got a point. If we're gonna allow residential on the main commercial arteries we ought to really tightly define what it is that you can build. And maybe you don't have to rezone to commercial. I threw that in a while ago for purposes of debate 'cause I wanted you to tug on it. But maybe you don't have to rezone in C-1 to have residential in it. And maybe you don't have a special exception. But there's got to be some formula we can get our arms around that says okay Mr. builder if you want to have a residential application on a main artery it has to meet these criteria. That was a good idea. But if we're gonna have that idea along Al A I still advocate that we ought to have it along N. Atlantic. It works the same in both places. Bea McNeely: Okay. We haven't heard from Dr. Fredrickson. John Fredrickson: Well it seems to me we are spinning our wheels here tonight because we have already approved a recommendation for this project to be extended until September the moratorium. And we've got a lively board called the Business and Cultural Development Board which is suppose to do the groundwork and I'd rather wait for them to do their work and then play around with their recommendations. I don't know why we're doing their work right now. Let them do what they're commissioned to do and when they get done then we'll have some fun. Why we're doing this is beyond me. Lamar Russell: Well I think I might be able to enlighten you. What we're doing tonight is having a discussion. We're kicking around ideas. We're not making decisions. It's okay to have well ahead of the time that you have to bite the bullet. Page 4 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2009 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Discussion continued regarding residential use in the C-1 zoning district that was not pertinent to subject of the verbatim transcript Lamar Russell: Well there's something else we need to kick around before we leave the subject. It's was it transition zone? Todd Peetz: There was a couple of other things to talk about tonight. Transitions zones are basically areas that have already converted to residential and they're still being zoned C-1. Maybe we should identify areas that are maybe there's some areas that have residential and some commercial and they're transitioning the Presidents streets would be a good example. President's streets the first three hundred feet is commercial then after that its residential you know it could be transitional maybe you could allow commercial to continue back that way and maybe push residential towards AlA. I don't know but that might be another way to look at it. A transition zone. Then also as I just mentioned it's been mentioned in the past that on AlA anyway the first three hundred feet should be preserved for commercial only. Regardless of what anyone else may want. That should be reserved strictly commercial. So that was one of the recommendations we had from earlier discussions. Lamar Russell: The other thing I was thinking about was compatibility. The word compatibility that was the thing that got us in trouble. You can compatible with almost anything around here with residential. I guess compatibility is you know it when you see it. But we don't really have any strict criteria and I think we ought to have an agenda item some night to debate that and make it more defined so we can apply it more strictly then we won't be giving special exceptions away like candy. Todd Peetz: And that's where D and E came in on number five. When we talk about you know if you're gonna ask for residential by special exception you should be abutting existing residential around a certain percentage around the perimeter. Page 5 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2009 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL,WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA,AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D)AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Todd Peetz--continued-- and then E is saying if you are residential going into an existing commercial there should be some buffering. You're the intruding use not the commercial intruding on you so there should be some additional set back requirements buffer requirements from the residential use from the commercial use. Discussion continued regarding residential use in the C-1 zoning district that was not pertinent to the subject of the verbatim transcript Bea McNeely: One more thing about compatibility. We have another board. The Community Appearance Board and there criteria is to look at the appearance of projects in the I'm not sure of the wording but they can't be to similar or dissimilar from the surrounding residences businesses whatever and so that is something that comes under compatibility if it's not to similar or dissimilar of course that's a judgment call but I think they've done a pretty good job of keeping things looking good. New things anyway so that's another avenue of compatibility is appearance. I think a lot of compatibility has to do with appearance of course you have to deal with traffic and noise and things like that. But if it looks good it's probably all right. --Laughter-- Lamar Russell: There are two kinds of special exceptions. There's the kind of special exception that allows you to intrude into the setback in a neighborhood you live in. And the other kind of special exception is the residential in commercial. I wrote down the idea. Here's how it goes. The idea is allow residential in commercial without special exception. How? Define criteria that must be met to obtain a residential permit in C-1. What is that criteria? I don't know yet. But I think that's what we ought to go away with here to really pound on. Let's pound that flat and if we can come back with really tight criteria and sell that to the Council then they'd be glad to get rid of the special exception. Then you'd have a way to allow residential mix in C-1 with tightly defined criteria. Right now I don't know what that is but I think we can get our arms around it if we worked on it. Well it's an idea. Page 6 of 20 ti Verbatim Transcript Planning& Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Bea McNeely: One of the things that came up and we made this very clear is requesting a special exception for residential in commercial is not a vested right. But that's going to come back and somebody's gonna say well I had the idea that I was gonna build residential here and now you say I can't. If we have criteria that is very tight and does say what you can have we might avoid some of that feedback. Because you're saying we're not taking anything away from you. You just have to meet the new criteria. Although it is very clear to all of us up here that there's no vested right. But I'm not sure it's clear to every one. Lamar Russell: It depends on whether you own property or not. --Laughter-- Bea McNeely: It depends on what you want to do. Okay do we have some comments from the audience? Robert Hoog: I wasn't gonna speak but I have to. I have been listening very observantly. I'm Bob Hoog to start with. The problem isn't the criteria. We can have all the criteria in the world or you can have no criteria. We allow special exception for commercial to be built residential. Fifteen units an acre just like it's over in the residential district. Can't build any more than that. There's areas where they're only five and six per acre. And that area is the area that brought all of this to the city's attention. Nice places. Nice homes. Nice people. Built in the wrong place. Doctor John you haven't done anything wrong. Everything that's been brought to this board passed and went on and developed by the ordinance. And these people are back here tonight. They wouldn't be in the mess that area is in if this never had been allowed. True those lots should have been zoned residential years ago. North Atlantic's ninety nine percent residential. Main concern is not how many are in there. What kind of criteria the size of the building the size of the lot the height everything is already in the ordinance. It can't be built any more than that regardless of where you build it. So criteria don't come into the picture. Page 7 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Robert Hoog --continued--What comes into the picture is the guy has a business over here and somebody moves into a commercial zone builds a house and makes it hard on that gentleman to conduct the business. Because they don't like the noise and they don't like the traffic that comes in and out of his business. They don't like the noise at night the business generates. But they're living right across the street or right next door to it like you're proposing to do in this AlA district. Putting residential right next to commercial it's not worth it. That's what brought this to my attention. And twenty years ago when I served on the board I talked against it. I kept saying they're gonna have problems. It's gonna create problems. Yup here we are today. These people got a very big problem. The gentleman that wants to build his commercial building is totally within his rights. But it's infringing on their privacy and their area. So that area up there is don't even. To me I'm not even interested in talking about North Atlantic because it all residential. So the best thing to do with that is just go ahead and rezone it. And Don hit the nail right on the head. If someone wants to come in to the city like the ordinances are set up right now on commercial and make it residential then he should go through a zoning process Comp plan amendment plan change and boom if he succeeds he can build. But we give away the special exception like phrases like candy. I would like you to tell me one special exception that this city's denied in twenty four twenty five years. None. Not one. Other than the one these people are here tonight for. To me that's like giving it away like candy. But yah they've met criteria's. They had to come in here and show you zoning. How many units they were going to build how high they were going to build retention drive entrances and exits. What all your criteria was. They met all that. So criteria's not the problem. Make it one unit per acre and they're still gonna complain about that one business. But that's why a came here tonight. To listen to what you had to say. When it comes back to me like my feelings were expressed last night on special exceptions with special exceptions do away with. I don't think it's good for the city. You talked about mixed use. C-1 you can have a lot of permissible types of businesses. Good businesses and what some people would turn bad. To me a business is a business. Page 8 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Robert Hoog--continued-- If it's allowable under our C-1 district and it's got to be a good business or we wouldn't allow it. But then when you put a house in there right next to an automobile repair place that's not gonna work. That's the criteria we had right up here on Jefferson and Adams. That little nice little development. That's what brought this all to a head. Those people complain about the VFW. They complain about the automobile repair shop. They're complaining about the little store across the street. They're complaining about the little liquor store center over there. All this because they're in the wrong place. They're house is built right in the middle of a commercial district. And that's what you're gonna get if you allow it on AlA. It's not gonna be any different. Make it two houses an acre. Make it fifteen. It don't make any difference. They're still gonna complain. So my feelings are I would like to see us do away with special exceptions period. And if you want to come in and build a residential within that commercial zone then apply for the zoning and put the Comp Plan through for it. And do it that's the way it should be done. That's the way our ordinance is written and that's the way we should follow it. But yes we do have a special exception. But it's gotten us in trouble. And these people here I hope we resolve your problem. We'll resolve it one way or the other. But we'll keep having this same problem if we keep allowing it. It's not gonna go away. It's not gonna change. And if we do it like I say one house per acre we're still gonna have these problems. It's not gonna cure it. Criteria's not the problem. It's people. And the poor guy in business up there that has his car repair business place that business has been there since I've been here almost. Forty eight years I know of it's been there. It wasn't here when I moved here but it was here forty eight years ago. And all of a sudden houses move in in the wrong district and they want him to close up and go away. So guess who's wrong? The city's wrong in allowing it. And I as a council member have to listen to these people. Both sides. The neighbors and the business guy. Why can't I do this? Why do they have to complain about my business? I've been here long before they got here. They're in the wrong place. So if you want to keep on giving special exceptions we're gonna keep having to fight because it's not gonna go away. And Page 9 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning& Zoning Board February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Robert Hoog --continued-- I think Mr. Dunn has the total right thing. Let them come in and apply for it the way it should be. That's all I have to say. Lamar Russell: Can I ask you a couple of things Bob? Robert Hoog: Sure. Lamar Russell: I've stood where you stand and asked the same thing and get the special exception. Robert Hoog: I listen to you when you talk. Lamar Russell: And the council keeps asking for more input. If you keep getting more input pretty soon you don't get anything done. And nothing happens. So you know Leo will go with ya. You'll vote for it. Work on Rocky. If you get three votes you can get rid of this thing and we'll move forward. Robert Hoog: I can't speak for the other fellas. They know how I feel. I stated my case again last night very clear I'm totally against them not that I'm against residential I'm against what problem it creates. I'd like to see the city one hundred percent residential. That would be real nice not having any businesses but that's not good either then you won't have anybody complaining about anybody other than this guy that doesn't cut his yard or doesn't paint his house. And those are things you hear all day long too. When you have a businessman that's been here over forty five years and you've got neighbors that have only been there for five or six years and they're going down to city hall trying to get him closed up because of the noise. That's not right. And I would defend the neighbor as much as against him as I would him against the neighbor. I don't play any favorites. Page 10 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning& Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2009 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL,WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Robert Hoog --continued-- I work with John and I'm speaking here probably against John and what John wants to do and I work for John sometimes. So I don't have any feelings towards hurting somebody's feelings if they are wrong but I'll sure tell you right now what I'm here for Lamar Russell: We gave a recommendation didn't we give a recommendation early on about doing away with the special exceptions? Especially along AlA or didn't we? Bea McNeely: Hmm Hmm. Lamar Russell: I thought we did. The only reason we're talking about this tonight is we sensed the council wants more input. Wants to explore more ideas. But council can't get off the dime. Robert Hoog: Well I don't want any more. That's them guys talking. I don't need any more input. I've made my mind up. Because I've been listening to it well ever since I've been here. I've served on the council in the late 80s and we had nothing but problems with it. It wasn't as bad as it is now because it was something new and it was going and starting. And I said at that time it's not a good thing. And I still say today it's not a good thing. And proof is sitting in the back of the room. And proof is up the street. If you allow it on AIA it's probably gonna be ten times worse than what it is on North Atlantic. It's just not a good thing. It's spot zoning in the sense of the word. A lot of people say no it's a special exception it's not spot zoning. Well yes it is. You're letting things go in that they're not zoned for. If you're zoned for that it's not spot zoning. That's good zoning. What we got today is totally spot zoning and along AIA my contention is three hundred feet back. Both sides totally commercial. Presidential streets on the back side of Poinsetta go ahead and rezone them residential they're all residential anyway. But at least let's save the corridor and save all this arguing between businesses and people. That's all I have to say. But I'll be looking forward to seeing it come up. --Laughter and clapping-- Page 11 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Bea McNeely: Okay. Well we're still talking about residential use in the C-1 zone. Do we have someone else that has a different view? --silence--Well maybe we can move the discussion on to the next item then. Kate do we have to make a motion to do anything with this agenda item? Kate Latorre: No. It's only a discussion item. You don't have to do anything. Bea McNeely: I think our minutes will show exactly what was said. We discussed it. Okay if everyone agrees we'll go on to item number seven since its nine thirty. Verbatim transcript of agenda item#7 regarding a discussion on Changing C-1 Zoning to R-1 Zoning on Lots 2 & 3, Harbor Heights West Subdivision. Bea McNeely: Item number seven is another discussion item changing C-1 zoning to R-1 zoning on lots two and three Harbor Heights West Subdivision. Todd that's your hot potato tonight. Todd Peetz: Well this is the same one we saw at the last meeting and at the last meeting we decided to table this to this meeting because we thought there would be a decision made at the Board of Adjustment Meeting. And the Board of Adjustment at the Board of Adjustment meeting instead of taking any action on it they just delayed it for a month to allow the property owner to work with the city as far as maybe making a purchase offer and the idea of maybe purchasing the property versus having them decide on whether or not to allow that to be a residential use in C-1. So I think at the meeting we had with this one you said you wanted it on this agenda. So you know we have people in the audience. But I think the idea was is that this was going to be heard after the Board of Adjustment took action on it which won't be until March thirteenth meeting I think that's the date. Is that the date the thirteenth? Page 12 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Many speakers: yes. Lamar Russell: We shouldn't do anything until they've made there decision. So I recommend we just take this off the table and we can bring it back when we need to. And hear anything anyone has to say I recommend that too. --Laughter-- Bea McNeely: Well this is an open meeting if you have something to say can you come to the microphone please? I think that the item is moot though. --Laughter-- Todd Peetz: Yes you're correct. Joe Ross: Good evening my name is Joe Ross I'm a co-owner of two two seven Coral Drive. Which is near lots two and three under discussion tonight? I think there is kind of two things going on here. One is the issue whether to for the Board of Adjustment whether to recommend to grant special exception which would be an R-2 and this discussion is dealing with changing the two lots which are currently C-1 to R-1. And there's just a few facts that I'd like to present. One is going into Section 110-331 with regard to C-1 low density commercial district. And I did present some of this to the City Council last night so if the people that were here last night sorry that's it repetitive. Basically the first paragraph begins the requirements for the C-1 low density commercial district is intended to apply to an area that is adjacent to major arterial streets. Then it goes on to say and convenient to residential areas. I don't believe that the two lots in question are adjacent to a major artery. They are adjacent to Coral Drive which is a residential street with a twenty mile an hour speed limit. North Atlantic is the closest major arterial and its I'm not sure what the distance is of the adjacent lots. But there's a lot that's zoned commercial between North Atlantic and these two lots in question. So I don't believe that those two lots those three lots actually that were subdivided meet the requirement that's spelled out in this section. Page 13 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Joe Ross --continued-- Then the next piece that I have here is from the Planning& Zoning Board meeting minutes of May 22nd 2002 and there was a recommendation to the Board for a special exception. It was request number 02-07 and that was to allow residential use in the C-1 zoning district Parcel 255.0 Harbor Heights Subdivision. I believe that was talking about lot two. And there was a request to allow residential use in the C-1 zoning district. And as you read through the minutes Mr. Nicholas which was I assumed a member of the Board at that time voiced his opinion that R-2 zoning was not compatible with the Harbor Heights single family subdivision. Discussion followed regarding limiting the number of units as condition of recommended approval. And as you move to the motion it was a motion that was seconded brought by Ms. Shea-King seconded by Mr. Nicholas to recommend approval of the special exception request with the following condition. There was a condition placed on it and that was that the use of the property be limited to one single family residence. So in essence it created an R-1 situation. And there is in fact a single family residence on there. And that motion was carried unanimously. Donald Dunn: What lot was that for? Joe Ross: It's not specific in this but it's the only lot that was built on at that time and that's lot two. Moving on to the Planning& Zoning Board regular meeting minutes of January 25th 2006 which I believe was your last meeting there was a recommendation that you brought up that was for a special exception request number 05-15. This has to do with lot three for residential and there were I believe I counted eleven or twelve residents of the city that came up and spoke to you that evening. And from what I read most of them were against putting three townhomes on that lot. But to get to the point following discussion the planning and zoning board members concluded that a special exception is not a vested right which was brought up here tonight. It's a speculation on obtaining special use permission. Number two this is an established unique neighborhood with single family one story homes. Page 14 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning& Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Joe Ross --continued-- It's also a fact. Number three the main criteria for special exception is neighboring compatibility. That's putting townhomes in between two single family residences. Not necessarily compatible in my opinion and I guess this board's opinion. And number four this is not a compatible use. There was a motion made by Lamar seconded by Mr. Dunn to recommend denial of the special exception request because it's not compatible with the surrounding use. Vote on the motion carried unanimously. So I just wanted to reiterate that there is some fact out there with regarding potentially doing this. The fact that there may be someone harmed in some way in doing this you have to out weigh the good of one to the weight of many. And back in the early nineteen nineties in a county near Seattle the urban sprawl was getting so great that the county in the east portion of the county put a moratorium on subdividing lots. In fact some of the land owners were limited to only being allowed to divide the lots by twenty acres some went as low as five. But there were a lot of people that were harmed by that. It was temporary and they've released some of that property. It took ten to twelve years to do that. But the point was is that they couldn't be allowed to continue. There was no infrasture to handle it. There were reasons for doing it and I guess in answering your question about planning fifty years ahead what's factiously I have this picture of dealing with North Atlantic I see a big parking lot on the South end of North Atlantic and another big parking lot on the North end of North Atlantic and there are buses bringing residents to there homes. Because you're not going to be able to fit all those cars on that road it's terrible now and it's just going to get worse as we put more and more homes along there especially multifamily. So thank you for your time. Harry Pearson: I've had a question in my mind. I'm really looking at Todd for this. I look at this lot three and lot two and then over beyond them which is actually the frontage on North Atlantic the lot designated as lot A and then above that there's one designated as lot D it seems to me the use of lot three is to some extent connected with the use of lot A. What will ever happen to lot A? Page 15 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Todd Peetz: Well lot A and D the ones you're talking about that are on North Atlantic there's a big problem with those two lots because there's a fifty foot setback from North Atlantic Avenue there and it greatly constricts the setback. The buildable setbacks lot D is almost unbuildable as it is and lot A is extremely tight. There's not much you'd be able to do with them. But lot A and lot three are not connected by ownership so they're not connecting lots. Harry Pearson: But they are by geography. Todd Peetz: Well if lot A and lot three were connected then there'd be access to North Atlantic but they're not. Lamar Russell: So we don't know what will happen. Todd Peetz: We don't know what will ever happen with lot A and D at this point. I'm not sure. Maybe a fruit stand is the only thing you could fit in there. Bea McNeely: For those of you who are in the audience this board has to do with competent substantial evidence. Those words that mean a great deal to what we do. And so all the evidence that comes before us and comes before the other board has to be competent and substantial. We're at the same in pass that we were the other night. Judith Lau: Excuse me Bea McNeely: Yes Judy Judith Lau: I would like to speak to this. I was in such a rush I didn't know this was on tonight so I didn't grab my papers from last night. But the people who were present last night know that I quoted a case number with these particular three lots were involved in Page 16 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning& Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Judith Lau --continued-- litigation with this city over ten years. When they were purchased by Mr. Szapor in 1989 I believe it was he came before this board asking for a plat to subdivide those three lots and build three houses. At which time the city told him he didn't own the land that that land was given to the city to build a swimming pool. And that issue and his ability to plat that land and build his home and two other single family residences on lots one two and three remained in litigation for ten years. Over ten years. Finally the city was dismissed as a defendant. Not on the merits. The city brought a summary judgment which was granted because the court felt that Ernie knew way back in 1989 and 1990 that the city was interfering with his rights to use that property. And one of his counts was in condemnation. And he blew the statute by not filing the lawsuit in 1989 1990 instead he waited until 1996. To me the whole situation is ludicrous. You had a man that bought the property to build his house and two other single family homes in a single family neighborhood and the city says no. We were given the land by the people who developed Ocean Woods and we're gonna build a community swimming pool. Well the city didn't act on it. The gifter took it back and sold it to Ernie. He was never able to develop. He was never able to do anything more than to put fill on lot one because that's where he wanted to build his house. And here we are how many years later with basically the same questions. Do multifamily even if they're townhouses even if they are lovely townhouses belong in the neighborhood? Everybody was out there today. Everybody was out there. How many people from either the city council or this board were out looking at those lots today? There was a group. Even Ernie came and joined in I guess he got a little heated. Because this isn't his favorite body of people. Let's do what's right this time. Because what goes around does come around. From what I understand lot one was a done deal because they told me right here that this board couldn't stop it. They couldn't say no to Mr. Morgan and his special exception. I was told that right here it's on the record. Now guess who the building inspector was when Mr. Szapor brought his plans to the city? Who was the one that told him you can't build on that lot you don't own it. Mr. Morgan. Enough's enough. Page 17 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Judith Lau --continued-- The lots were platted by special resolution of this council into three lots. It needs to be single family. It needs to be R-1. And somebody's got to have the guts to stand up and finally do what's right. Those are R-1 lots. Nowhere on this plan is R-1 a dead zoning category in this city. No one talks R-1 anymore. You don't have hardly any R-1. I only see a little bit and that's been there a long time. The city as a whole I guess has decided that multifamily is the only way to go? In a place where there's a little sliver of land we're gonna put multifamily. Well some of us chose not to live in multifamily in this town. Some of us chose to do that. I lived in a condominium in California. I loved living in my condo. But I don't think when you can't even say you've got an R-1 zone in the city and you're not working to preserve what's there. That's rightfully and should be R-1 then something's wrong. Something is really wrong. This started in 1989 and this is 2006? That's wrong. And I'm ashamed. I'm ashamed that the city that I chose to live in. The city that I really value makes two front page stories in the Hometown News on the same day. I think that's a record. And I don't think it's a good one. Thank you. --Audience clapping--- Bea McNeely: All right I think we'll move along because actually we can't take any action on this on this discussion item. Lamar Russell: What are you gonna do with it? Leave it on the agenda for next time or just take it off? I think we should take it off until a lot of things get settled. Board of Adjustments has to act. Council has some deliberations they're undergoing right now with regard to these lots. We made our recommendation a long time ago. The only reason why we keep talking is because it keeps coming back on the agenda. And we keep trying to help the council because they won't make a decision. And it's no reflection on Bob. Page 18 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning&Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Lamar Russell --continued -- The council as a whole just won't simply make the decision it ought to make and what will help it make a decision is a room full of people down here to tell the council to do their business. And Bob's right. Just get rid of the special exception. Then if anyone wants it they have to come in for a rezoning. That would be a first start. There are other things we've got to clean up. But that would be a valuable first start. Bea McNeely: All right is there anyone else from the Board that wishes to say anything? If not I'm going to move to close the discussion. Cause this is a discussion item. Is there anything else from the Board? Okay I move to close the discussion on this item and that we do not put it on another agenda until there is some other movement. Harry Pearson: I would second that. Bea McNeely: All right any discussion? --silence-- Call the question. Susan Chapman: Donald Dunn Donald Dunn: For Susan Chapman: John Fredrickson John Fredrickson: For Susan Chapman: Bea McNeely Bea McNeely: For Page 19 of 20 Verbatim Transcript Planning& Zoning Board Meeting February 22, 2006 THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED AT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE CAPE CANAVERAL CITY ATTORNEY, REFLECTS THE MENTAL IMPRESSIONS, CONCLUSIONS, LITIGATION STRATEGY OR LEGAL THEORIES OF THE CITY ATTORNEY AND WAS PREPARED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LITIGATION TRIPPLE J INVESTMENTS LLC V. THE CITY OF CAPE CANAVERAL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, AND THUS IS EXEMPT FROM PUBLIC RECORDS DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 119.071(1)(D) AND 768.28(16), FLORIDA STATUTES. Susan Chapman: Harry Pearson Harry Pearson: For Susan Chapman: Lamar Russell Lamar Russell: For Bea McNeely: Okay that brings us to the end of our agenda. Page 20 of 20